【Relay Interview 2】 Jun Sawada, Chairman of NTT：Chapter ２ “Can you see that we are already in a Multilayered Society of Values?”—A perspective shift we want to present to the world

Interviewer: Could you explain why you chose to base the foundation of new philosophy on Eastern and Japanese philosophy?

Sawada: Modern Western philosophical thinking has largely been built on the notion of self-subsistent, individualistic "I." Kant’s conception of freedom tied with autonomy is a good example of it. The Japanese way of thinking, by contrast, sees our existence as essentially inseparable from other beings, and this is perhaps rooted in our polytheistic tradition. In any case, the difference is quite significant. My intuition was the Japanese, Eastern way of philosophizing might offer clues for articulating the kind of new philosophy I was after. That would also allow us to draw on our own philosophical heritage, I thought.

In this respect, the concept of "Multilayered Society of Values" is brilliant. This was also proposed by Prof. Deguchi. To think about it, the East has been influenced by the West, and the West has also been influenced by the East. Upon reflection, we see that each single one of us is composed of various cultures, civilizations, and values. Individuals are not, as it were, one single color. Accordingly, society is diverse and multilayered, as it consists of many such individuals. This is the insight the notion of "Multilayered Society of Values" captures.

Interviewer: Some might say "pluralistic" instead of "multilayered." What distinguishes between the two concepts?

Sawada: Using the term "Pluralistic Society of Values" merely acknowledges that there are various kinds of people. That is not what we are aiming for.

That said, it must be noted that when we talk about "realizing a Multilayered Society of Values," what we are essentially doing is to ask the question: "Can you see that we are already in a Multilayered Society of Values?" Our starting point is the assumption that most people haven't yet recognized this reality.

Interviewer: So, from your perspective, the world is already a Multilayered Society of Values?

Sawada: Exactly. However, totalitarian or fundamentalist ways of thinking tend to conceal the multilayered nature of the world as they can only recognize one "true" value. This is why we see extreme polarization in places like the United States. Both the right and the left have shifted to extremes, each becoming somewhat totalitarian in its own way. What we need is more of those who can see things from the opposing perspectives and embrace the complexity of the world. Japan is no exception. Unless we cultivate such capacity in our people, polarization of society will be unstoppable and result in a catastrophic situation.

Modern society has grown increasingly complex through the interactions of various cultures such as those between the West and the East. Our society is woven from numerous, sometimes hidden, layers, forming a nested structure that isn’t immediately apparent. To foster both collective and individual well-being, we must first acknowledge that "values are multilayered"—this is simply the nature of our society.

Interviewer: You and Professor Deguchi, as Co-Chairpersons, have been visiting Europe and the United States to build international networks. How has the response been?

Sawada: Professor Deguchi and I share the belief that without international support, our initiative risks remaining just a local Japanese movement. That’s why we are actively engaging with global partners—to generate momentum abroad that can later be harnessed here at home. Besides, if we promoted this movement solely as a Japanese or Kyoto-based initiative without international collaboration, it might come off as overly "Kyoto-centric." Our goal is to advocate for the Chūku (中空) model. Chūku can be translated as open-centered. This consists in a structure where no single entity dominates in terms of interests or values. This model encourages horizontal relationships and mutual cooperation, and for this reason Professor Deguchi also refers to this as the "Fellowship Model." We are dedicated to make sure our actions reflect this open-centered model.

Essentially, the "WE-turn" that Professor Deguchi advocates is all about recognizing our individual selves are inherently part of WE by acknowledging that, as "I," we are fundamentally incapable of doing anything alone. Importantly, this proposal is not about sacrificing individuality for the sake of collectivism. This is a misconception that sometimes arises, especially in Western interpretations. To avoid such a misunderstanding, I often use a simple diagram to show that "WE" encompasses animals, tools, family, friends, and oneself. The choice is not a dichotomy between "I or WE." Rather, Self-as-We recognizes that we are both individuals as an "I" and integral parts of a "WE." Our individuality remains a core value.

Continued in “Chapter 3“